Curse

Lourens · Jun 23, 2009, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Personally I love Warriors they have good armor + look good and have quite a few weapons to choose from, try to experiment with swords/hammers and axes a bit.
People that won't accept you are just stubborn or stupid Imo.

Forgotton200 · Jun 23, 2009, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

I'm too lazy to do the line by line quote thing so I will use asterisks to answer to your post point by point.

* Assassin attack chains are pretty reliable in PvE. Golden Fox Strike -> Wild Strike -> Death Blossom is a staple, first two hits are unblockable, removes block stances & has aoe damage. Clearly superior to warrior. This isnt pvp

* Above mentioned chain has max recharge of 4 seconds, surely spammable even if blocked. Also, run in conjunction with Moebius strike, attack skills that are diverted or d-shotted are recharged if you have another dual available. However, these instances are extremely rare in PvE. Again, this isnt PvP.

* Assasins dont need to AoE knockdown. That is because they kill everything in 2-3 seconds...Warriors need to pressure, knockdown and all that crap because they cant kill as fast. AoHM Wounding Strike Crit Scythe sins are a classic example. Warriors with Scythes do significantly lower damage due to lack of crit hits with that massive base damage.

* Crit agility rarely gets stripped that fast. In realistic situations, Assassins are using a lot of cover enchants, such as way of the master, aura of holy might, crit defences, prot spirit, strength of honor etc etc (although these arent used by the sin himself, they are used very regularly in most melee based teams), not to mention things like orders etc which are cover enchant fodder. On the other hand, I find stance based IAS to be very limiting, in that it isnt "fire & forget" like crit agility on a Sin. Conflicting perspectives perhaps, but in PvE, I prefer Crit agility to any other stance based IAS.

* A sin with Crit Agility has the same base armor as a Warrior. Warriors do NOT make better frontliners. A sin with crit defence can hold aggro just as well as a Warrior. Micro'ing prots really evens out the playing field, and Guild Wars IS a team based game, where you need to have a team based approach.

* Here's why I mentioned the PvE Buff for Asuran Scan as a point in Sin's favor. Earlier, with the 2 sec cast time, Scan wasnt run on bars that much except for bosses and such. However, due to the reduced cast time, Scan became much more spammable. Currently, apart from Warrior's Endurance bars, few Warrior builds can afford to spam Asuran Scan as fast as a Sin can, given their superior energy regen & energy management ability (i.e crit strikes).

Feel free to dispute my point. I recognize your approach as one being held by a lot of players who favor warriors, but in the current PvE meta, I believe that Assassins are superior to Warriors, when used correctly.

This quote proves how inferior assassins are.
1) If your getting your chains off so often, my first advice is to kick your lackadaisical group out. In hard mode, nothing stays alive for more than around two seconds in a decent group. You're not getting your death blossom-moebius strike off.

2) See #1

3) Armor sensitive damage is shit.

4) Critical Agility comes right back up with successful criticals.

5) They don't make better frontliners. Survival is based on enchantments. Half the game is filled with it.

6) I'm spamming it on D-slash godmode. You're not good at playing warriors. Don't blame your inferior skill to the profession.

Warriors > Assassins.

Regarding dps, you're doing 0 dps when you're dead. Assassin's death is as frequent as the amount of cheetos you eat on a daily basis.

Post Edited by Cebe: Removed flame-inducing comments

faraaz · Jun 23, 2009, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forgotton200

3) Armor sensitive damage is shit.

Look at those two screens. Those are images of damage text in HM in Snakes Dance with NO buffs outside of my own bar, made from the first 2 mobs I encountered in the area. I'm not even trying to "maximise" the text to prove anything. Nor am I trying to abuse bonus damage from strength and honor or great dwarf weapon or all that other shit warriors need to be half as good.

WTB Screens of you doing more on your warrior by yourself in HM before you say another word about "armor sensitive damage".

Quote:

Regarding dps, you're doing 0 dps when you're dead. Assassin's death is as frequent as the amount of cheetos you eat on a daily basis.

Learn to play please.

TryingToVanquish · Jun 23, 2009, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

assassins

Dervish = Warrior > Assassin.

seriously, D-slash asuran scan can reach the dmg you're doing while having invincibility party wise (Save yourselves!), better survivability and if you encounter enchant strips, you're just going to a worthless member of the group.

of course, on that thread you made saying how D-slash sucks because you're only able to do 20 dmg or so, I'm not surprised on why you would think the way you do about warriors.

Also, guild wars is meant as a team game. There's absoutely no synergies for a critical scythe. i rather take Mark of pain/barbs necro with me and clear the game 20 times as fast as you. also, the utility is a bonus, warriors just do so much more for the team than critical scythe assassins could ever imagine.

faraaz · Jun 23, 2009, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by TryingToVanquish

Dervish = Warrior > Assassin.

seriously, D-slash asuran scan can reach the dmg you're doing while having invincibility party wise (Save yourselves!), better survivability and if you encounter enchant strips, you're just going to a worthless member of the group.

of course, on that thread you made saying how D-slash sucks because you're only able to do 20 dmg or so, I'm not surprised on why you would think the way you do about warriors.

Also, guild wars is meant as a team game. There's absoutely no synergies for a critical scythe. i rather take Mark of pain/barbs necro with me and clear the game 20 times as fast as you. also, the utility is a bonus, warriors just do so much more for the team than critical scythe assassins could ever imagine.

You missed the point. When master of damage screens were posted Forgotton200 said it was armor sensitive damage and hence assassins are still shit. I made screens of an actual HM area with no buffs to show the damage potential in an actual realistic setting WITHOUT buffs purely to illustrate the killing power of a sin.

I was not showing those screens as an example of the MAXIMUM possible damage. Really, before you waltz in to this thread with your BS screens ( which do not show active effects, party screen & skill bar btw), don't think that this affects the argument in anyway.

TL;DR version: Forgotton dismissed Assassin damage as armor sensitive. I showed realistic expectation of damage. WTB the same from HIS warrior before the argument continues.

TryingToVanquish · Jun 23, 2009, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

You missed the point. When master of damage screens were posted Forgotton200 said it was armor sensitive damage and hence assassins are still shit. I made screens of an actual HM area with no buffs to show the damage potential in an actual realistic setting WITHOUT buffs purely to illustrate the killing power of a sin.

I was not showing those screens as an example of the MAXIMUM possible damage. Really, before you waltz in to this thread with your BS screens ( which do not show active effects, party screen & skill bar btw), don't think that this affects the argument in anyway.

TL;DR version: Forgotton dismissed Assassin damage as armor sensitive. I showed realistic expectation of damage. WTB the same from HIS warrior before the argument continues.

Quote:

Stop talking about scythes. Armor-sensitive damage = poo. End of story. Doesn't matter which class is wielding it, they're still mediocre. To make matters worse, AoHM (and avatar forms) coverts your damage type, so you can't share in many of those great intra-team synergies.

Quote by Chthon.

now you're just being a sore loser. this is a team game. you just added one gimmick to the party that doesn't have any benefit for it. i would never invite a critical scythe sin, they only belong with heroes and henchmans because they don't complain at the poor synergy in the group. when you play with real people, you're just going to be a wasted slot. warriors are going to do comparable damage, carry utility which helps tremendously for the party, better survivability, ias that can't be enchant stripped, i could go on all day.

faraaz · Jun 23, 2009, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by TryingToVanquish

Quote by Chthon.

now you're just being a sore loser. this is a team game. you just added one gimmick to the party that doesn't have any benefit for it. i would never invite a critical scythe sin, they only belong with heroes and henchmans because they don't complain at the poor synergy in the group. when you play with real people, you're just going to be a wasted slot. warriors are going to do comparable damage, carry utility which helps tremendously for the party, better survivability, ias that can't be enchant stripped, i could go on all day.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you basically ignore DPS (which was the only point I was trying to correct in Forgotton's post), and harangue me on utility (which I never argued in the first place), to say that you are correct (by copy-pasting an obviously biased flame against assassins) to prove your point?

Okay...

TryingToVanquish · Jun 23, 2009, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

Correct me if I am wrong, but you basically ignore DPS (which was the only point I was trying to correct in Forgotton's post), and harangue me on utility (which I never argued in the first place), to say that you are correct (by copy-pasting an obviously biased flame against assassins) to prove your point?

Okay...

it isn't biased. after chton mentioned that, he said death blossom / moebius strike is good, it can at least synergy much better than critical scythe.

the whole point about that post wasn't dps(which i already cleared about). it's the fact that warriors are superior than assassins overall. i don't even know why you're still going on trying to prove nothing. assassins will never be better than warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Lol?

I can go on, but I think you get the point. Warriors are superior frontliners. Also, it seems that you forgot the fact that asuran scan can be (and is) run on warriors.

Many people agrees with this. it's common sense, faraaz. only biased sins says otherwise.

faraaz · Jun 23, 2009, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by TryingToVanquish

it isn't biased. after chton mentioned that, he said death blossom / moebius strike is good, it can at least synergy much better than critical scythe.

the whole point about that post wasn't dps(which i already cleared about). it's the fact that warriors are superior than assassins overall. i don't even know why you're still going on trying to prove nothing. assassins will never be better than warrior.

Many people agrees with this. it's common sense, faraaz. only biased sins says otherwise.

Clearly we are going to have to agree to disagree here because an equal number of people agree than an Assassin is superior to a Warrior (there is ample proof of this on the maintainable DPS thread, among others.)

As for Forgotton, in case you havent noticed, he has been using verbal abuse & flaming people with extremely personal attacks on multiple threads, so much so that a moderator saw fit to edit his posts. I am done ignoring his condescending attitude and hence I posted those screens to say that "armor sensitive damage" from the Sin is still superior to what a Warrior would be able to put out on his own in a Vanquish or some other comparable HM area.

Now you butt in repeating the same "Warrior > Assassin lolol gtfo stop tryin to argue nub my opinion > facts" without taking the context into consideration and want to be validated by my agreement with your opinion? I'm sorry, that isnt happening.

TryingToVanquish · Jun 23, 2009, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

Clearly we are going to have to agree to disagree here because an equal number of people agree than an Assassin is superior to a Warrior (there is ample proof of this on the maintainable DPS thread, among others.)

As for Forgotton, in case you havent noticed, he has been using verbal abuse & flaming people with extremely personal attacks on multiple threads, so much so that a moderator saw fit to edit his posts. I am done ignoring his condescending attitude and hence I posted those screens to say that "armor sensitive damage" from the Sin is still superior to what a Warrior would be able to put out on his own in a Vanquish or some other comparable HM area.

Now you butt in repeating the same "Warrior > Assassin lolol gtfo stop tryin to argue nub my opinion > facts" without taking the context into consideration and want to be validated by my agreement with your opinion? I'm sorry, that isnt happening.

it's because you don't understand anything. i see much more people agreeing that warriors > assassins. only you are the one making other comments. your screenshot didn't prove anything, 135 is a laughable damage and that derv with 800 dmg owned you lol. facts are facts. you can re-read over those threads since it's been repeated many times.

faraaz · Jun 23, 2009, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by TryingToVanquish

it's because you don't understand anything. i see much more people agreeing that warriors > assassins. only you are the one making other comments. your screenshot didn't prove anything, 135 is a laughable damage and that derv with 800 dmg owned you lol. facts are facts. you can re-read over those threads since it's been repeated many times.

Its like talking to a wall here...

Your 800 damage was against master of damage with a SHITLOAD of external buffs. WHAT FACTS? I DID read those posts and an EQUAL number of people told you that Assassins are > Warriors. Its called an OPINION ffs.

_Nihilist_ · Jun 24, 2009, 03:06 AM // 03:06

To the OP:

I had the same feeling about a year ago. All I saw were Assassins running around, using PermaSF to farm everything GW had to offer, feeling like ANet had made a bastard child out of my Warrior, who was, is, and will continue to be my main.

Thanks to information that proved otherwise that was put to Thread by Marty Silverblade and various other posters (Marty got the Sticky up, and anyone feeling crappy about their Warr should read it two or three times to get any thoughts of being "useless" out of their heads), I was able to get my head out of my ass and actually see what my Warrior was capable of, both on his own, and in the proper Team.

Side Note:
The Maintained DPS Thread flew off track, but I agree with faraaz in that the number of people for each side of the debate, both Assassin and Warrior, were fairly equal.

Also have to hand it to faraaz for what I had initially posted about testing real builds in an area other than IotN against MoD. As far as I'm concerned, CritScythe has shown (in an actual in-game area) just how powerful Assassins can be (might be higher maintained DPS than a Warrior, but again, no in-game damage log to finally put that discussion/debate to rest... /cry)

Please don't sidetrack this Thread as well (I'm not accusing anyone of doing so, but since some of the same arguments are getting brought up, I feel a need to say something), I'm sure the OP doesn't want his/her Thread closed before they find information that could help them.

TryingToVanquish · Jun 24, 2009, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

but again, no in-game damage log to finally put that discussion/debate to rest... /cry)

so Faraaz, would you like to conclude our discussion with this quote? That it's impossible to figure out which is truly superior. otherwise we can continue our debate forever or permanently end it here. my bro would probably be fine with that as well.

Axel Zinfandel · Jun 24, 2009, 04:12 AM // 04:12

You think warriors are useless? Run a Dervish and try having everything you do be inferior to warriors and assassins D:

faraaz · Jun 24, 2009, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by TryingToVanquish

so Faraaz, would you like to conclude our discussion with this quote? That it's impossible to figure out which is truly superior. otherwise we can continue our debate forever or permanently end it here. my bro would probably be fine with that as well.

Why would I want to conclude the discussion with that quote? You seem to be in an awful hurry to get my acquiescence. No one else has bothered to post a screen of in game damage in a realistic setting, nor has anyone bothered to counter my argument regarding the frontline capabilities of an Assassin aka killing power.

Feel free to provide fresh screens of your character which show active effects, name the ingame area (so your efforts may be replicated for verification) and I'll gladly admit your point if that is the case.

Also, I feel compelled to point out, given the nature of your posts, that I uploaded 2 screens for a reason.One is against a Warrior NPC and the other against a Caster NPC, so that one has an accurate representation of the kind of damage dealt to either.

ajsnuker · Jun 24, 2009, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Warriors are good for general all around pvp.... But when it comes to high end speed clears and farming teams there is really no place.

But I still like being a warrior and that is where i fell most at home. Despite the fact i had to make an asassin and a monk just to participate in stuff like uwsc , dtsc, and fowsc.

But I really like it as a profesion cuz you can fit into any balanced team build. Plus they look have some of the flashiest armor in the game that you can show off. (even know that like no warriors with obby even earned the money on there warrior).

but using it as your main to work on titles and do general pvp in nm and hm is really fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

You think warriors are useless? Run a Dervish and try having everything you do be inferior to warriors and assassins D:

rofl.....ya.... warriors , assasins, and rangers use scythes way better than dervishes do.

TryingToVanquish · Jun 24, 2009, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

Why would I want to conclude the discussion with that quote? You seem to be in an awful hurry to get my acquiescence. No one else has bothered to post a screen of in game damage in a realistic setting, nor has anyone bothered to counter my argument regarding the frontline capabilities of an Assassin aka killing power.

Feel free to provide fresh screens of your character which show active effects, name the ingame area (so your efforts may be replicated for verification) and I'll gladly admit your point if that is the case.

Also, I feel compelled to point out, given the nature of your posts, that I uploaded 2 screens for a reason.One is against a Warrior NPC and the other against a Caster NPC, so that one has an accurate representation of the kind of damage dealt to either.

a realistic image has already been uploaded. i already pwnd your damage in a realistic situation with your 130 dmg which i find quite sad. facts are facts. yours is all opinions. also like i mentioned, dps isn't everything about this game. you know what a team synerigies is? i bet this is your first time hearing it. that assassin has none. also, since a warrior can spam SY, he doesn't need the extra monk hench used like yours. less healing is taken, the whole party does more damage, which i find is more important than that one guy who contributes nothing to the party.

come up with something that can out dps this team (which is being powered by the warrior) http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10365555

and we'll talk about the usefulness of warriors vs. assassin.

oh wait you can't. warrior > sin

faraaz · Jun 24, 2009, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by TryingToVanquish

a realistic image has already been uploaded.

That "screen" which was heavily cropped & edited does not show active effects build & party. It was against Master of Damage, an AL 60 character in a controlled setting. That is hardly what I call realistic.

What I find ironic is that you call your opinions facts and my facts (screens that you can verify for yourself) an opinion.

faraaz · Jun 24, 2009, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forgotton200

Check post #62.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forgotton200

Hey guys, I actually don't play warrior or assassin (primary necro). I was just reading through the threads and typed out what has been said in my own words. lol i troll u, have fun arguing in this thread, I'd like to see which one is actually the best dps'er. I won't be bothering anymore, enjoy the thread.

So what, you are trolling? Yea, I believe that...mmk.

Bobby2 · Jun 24, 2009, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajsnuker

rofl.....ya.... warriors , assasins, and rangers use scythes way better than dervishes do.

Whoa, whoa. Cut 'em some slack. Rangers don't quite match up.